tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post7540540561699600177..comments2024-01-29T06:02:39.583-08:00Comments on Suzanne's Bookshelf: All things were made by it ...Suzanne McCarthyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-2673777268909245252009-06-05T09:25:05.919-07:002009-06-05T09:25:05.919-07:00If I may add a fundamentalist viewpoint - if we al...If I may add a fundamentalist viewpoint - if we allow for a view that Scripture interprets Scripture, then shouldn't John's prolgue, when translated, be translated in line with the rest of the Wisdom Literature, wherein Sophia is 'genderized' as female? Or at the very lest, remain in the neuter?J. L. Wattshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01000798494472742263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-10715579409509708222009-06-04T12:54:06.491-07:002009-06-04T12:54:06.491-07:00Welcome back!
this is so interesting - Many French...Welcome back!<br />this is so interesting - Many French translations have "la Parole" - in Italy at the moment I don't have my French Bible with me but it's quite interesting to see how it works in the prologue to John's gospel. Interesting too to see whether they really do use "elle" which would of course in this case be translated into English as "it"<br />Others work with le Verbe but then "il" shold also be translated as "it"Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04405344181636487394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-34683467366199778082009-06-03T19:02:55.047-07:002009-06-03T19:02:55.047-07:00I am just putting this together with Scholem'...I am just putting this together with Scholem's writing about the connection between the Kabbalah and the Valentinian gnostics. I hadn't really thought much about the ambiguity that was present in this text. <br /><br />Thanks for some good points. I need to think about whether any Jews could read this as meaning that the person called Jesus/Yeshuah was present at creation. I don't see that how that could be.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-71078293607140033682009-06-03T06:16:43.349-07:002009-06-03T06:16:43.349-07:00Welcome back! :) I seem to recall Maurice Wiles h...Welcome back! :) I seem to recall Maurice Wiles having written an article about early debates among Christian theologians about whether the Word was a personification or a person, an 'it' or a 'him' in English terms.<br /><br />The language and culture within which a discussion occurs certain shapes it, but it doesn't seem that the ambiguity in Greek between "him" and a masculine noun's "it" altogether prevented the issue coming up even in that context.James F. McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-81891741201144900132009-06-03T03:10:59.526-07:002009-06-03T03:10:59.526-07:00To illustrate, we could gloss Matthew's Bible ...To illustrate, we could gloss Matthew's Bible with the Greek pronouns:<br /><br />The same [Οὗτος] was in the beginnynge wyth God.<br />All thinges were made by it [αὐτοῦ]<br />and wythout it [αὐτοῦ]<br />was made nothynge that was made.<br />In it [αὐτῷ] was lyfe<br />and the lyfe was the lyght of men<br />and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes<br />but the darcknes comprehended it [αὐτὸ] not. <br /><br />There was a man sent from God<br />whose name was John.<br />The sam [Οὗτος] cam as a witnes <br />to beare wytnes of the lyght<br />that all men through him [αὐτοῦ] myght beleve.<br />He was not that lyght: <br />but to beare witnes of the lyght.<br /><br />That was a true lyght <br />whych lyghteth all me[n]<br />that come into the worlde.<br />He was in the worlde<br />and the worlde was made by hym [αὐτοῦ]:<br />and yet the worlde knewe hym not [αὐτὸν].<br /><br />The word [λόγος mas.], the man [ἄνθρωπος mas.], and the lyght [φῶς neut.] all take the same pronoun [αὐτός] - which the translator consistently personalizes (as "him" / "hym" / "his") after the mention of the "man."<br /><br />So, does the Matthew's Bible translation better reflect Ptolemy's interpretation or Iraneaus's (which the KJV presumably follows more)?<br /><br />In light of the development of Greek rhetoric (by Plato and Aristotle vs the sophists and poets and other theologs), John's Greek is rhetorical, and radical. "In the beginning was the logos" is not just to take readers back to Genesis 1 (not even just the first verse of LXX). "Logos" is the central concept of Greek philosophy (a concept similar to our "critical thinking") - which Aristotle reworks as "logic." Socrates and Plato, before Aristotle, had been grappling with how Isocrates, Gorgias, Protagoras and the like were peddling "logos" lessons. And there were disturbing texts such as "Dissoi Logoi" ("A Diversity of Words" - a catalog of culturally relative ethics). It's interesting to note that the LXX translators and the NT translator/writers all avoided certain Aristotelian terms. None uses "rhetoric" and only Paul once uses the word "logic." For John to use "logos" is no small thing. <br /><br />Yes "logos" is an "it." So is "phos" or light. So when John calls Jesus light in the context of these comings into the "kosmos," the world - that's huge. When John later has Jesus saying "I am" "the light of the world" - that is even bigger. Aristotle (or a pseudo Aristotle] had written a theological treatise called "On the Kosmos" - which of course is an early cosmology too. So there's the wordplay, from the Greek LXX, of "I AM" - and that's coupled with the wordplay, against the aristotelian paradigm, of "the universe / cosmos."<br /><br />The Iranaeus v. Ptolemy issues that Pagels writes of run deep into early Greek language disputes among the sophists and Socrates. Decisions LXX translators made with their Greek certainly helped the issues continue. I think the issues aren't just philological. That John's pronoun is ambiguous is to be celebrated. He seems very interested, by his Greek wordplay, in opening up new meanings out of the old (vs. shutting them down, as by "logic.")J. K. Gaylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07600312868663460988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-2266057934825167322009-06-02T19:32:48.398-07:002009-06-02T19:32:48.398-07:00well, it had slightly more to do with my ongoing d...well, it had slightly more to do with my ongoing discussion about language learning generally, but this is nevertheless interesting.<br /><br />Welcome back, by the way.Mike Aubreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04335768638306462369noreply@blogger.com