tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post7878156496057512855..comments2024-01-29T06:02:39.583-08:00Comments on Suzanne's Bookshelf: Ezer: aid or succourSuzanne McCarthyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-83065851135383132682008-02-16T10:21:00.000-08:002008-02-16T10:21:00.000-08:00Well, there are two stories of creation in Genesis...Well, there are two stories of creation in Genesis. In the one, male and female were made at the same time, both in the image and likeness of God. Clearly, equality between them is the message.<BR/><BR/>But even in the other story - the spare-rib story - male and female were created equal. In that version of creation, God created Adam (or the adam - "adam" can mean three things - a human, a human male, or a particular human male named Adam) and decided it was not good for Adam to be alone. But God does not rush right out and create a women. Nope, God brings to Adam, one after the other, the various animals. Adam names these animals and they are found unacceptable to be his partner. Why? Well one reason might be that if you named something, you were asserting ownership over it. So when Adam named the horse, platypus, etc., etc., he was claiming to own them. This claim of ownership (among other obvious reasons) is why those creatures were not suitable partners for Adam.<BR/><BR/>After God fashions the woman out of Adam's rib, Adam does NOT name her, but proclaims that at last this is flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone. There is still no hint of superiority or inferiority.<BR/><BR/>It is only after the "fall" that Adam calls his wife "Eve." Thus, the notion of hierarchy is the product, not of God's original intent, but of the sinfulness of humans. This is seen by how quick Adam is to blame Eve (and, by the way, God, as well "this woman YOU gave me"), and then Eve just as quickly blames the serpent. What would have happened if, instead of blaming others, each had confessed her/his own guilt and sought forgiveness? Well, it would have been a much shorter book, no doubt.<BR/><BR/>At any rate, women's "inferiority" isn't something ordained by God, but rather something caused by the original sin of pride (not, sex, pride). And, for Christians, doesn't the coming of Jesus and His institution of baptism wash away the stain of original sin? And thus, shouldn't the sinful belief in human inequality be rejected by Christians? Perhaps some day, but not yet.<BR/><BR/>KATEAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-10643778864564266332008-02-10T17:07:00.000-08:002008-02-10T17:07:00.000-08:00Suzanne, I just found your site and have taken a l...Suzanne, <BR/>I just found your site and have taken a liking to it. I'll add it to my page-reader. Also, if you're looking to list any more language/translation tools or sites, you might check out my "free biblical resources" page at Pisteuomen and if you want, add it. the addy is: <BR/>www.michaelhalcomb.blogspot.com<BR/><BR/>be blessed,<BR/>--michaelT. Michael W. Halcombhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01119080394574322124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-19111029480519792572008-02-10T14:06:00.000-08:002008-02-10T14:06:00.000-08:00I would definitely go with "ally and champion". An...I would definitely go with "ally and champion". And with your second point too. <BR/><BR/>In my understanding part of what it means to be "made in the image of God" is the need to be in relationship. God is a relational being within the Godhead.<BR/><BR/>I think that's what it means when it says that without woman, man had no vis-à-vis. As I see it, the marriage relationship is supposed to be exactly that - a relationship where each is the vis-à-vis, or ally, of the other. Yes I would go completely with the reciprocal thing. <BR/><BR/>I'm not familiar with Alter... Women sustain life by giving birth, but I see the Genesis 2 passage as speaking more about the incompleteness without relationship.Charityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08394884331809747043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-6429370254514259052008-02-10T13:55:00.000-08:002008-02-10T13:55:00.000-08:00Charity,What do you think of this. Woman is an all...Charity,<BR/><BR/>What do you think of this. Woman is an ally and champion of man and man should be the same to woman. <BR/><BR/>The reason why the first is mentioned and the second is not, is because it was written from the man's point of view. <BR/><BR/>On the other hand, maybe it means, as Alter wrote, a sustainer. Women sustain life by giving birth.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-15119677313629752522008-02-10T13:39:00.000-08:002008-02-10T13:39:00.000-08:00You make an excellent point Suzanne. I remember ta...You make an excellent point Suzanne. <BR/><BR/>I remember talking with Jules-Marcel Nicole, who was one of the translators for the Second Révisée, about this years and years ago. He was then a very old man, but he was very clear on why they had chosen this particular wording, to avoid the subordinate connotations which are clearly not there in the original Hebrew. I think they didn't use 'secours' because that would have suggested superiority which wouldn't have been right either.Charityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08394884331809747043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-85263667258856486432008-02-10T13:22:00.000-08:002008-02-10T13:22:00.000-08:00Thank you Charity,I chose this as an example. It a...Thank you Charity,<BR/><BR/>I chose this as an example. It also helps to clarify what happened to Phoebe when she was downgraded from one who succours, to one who helps. <BR/><BR/>Of course, prostatis is a complicated word. The masculine refers to a temple leader or officer. It is definitely an office in the LXX, when it is used of a man, why not when it is used of a woman?Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-73378604138780745032008-02-10T12:48:00.000-08:002008-02-10T12:48:00.000-08:00Hi SuzanneThe picture isn't quite so bleak in all ...Hi Suzanne<BR/><BR/>The picture isn't quite so bleak in all French translations.<BR/><BR/>In the "Second Révisée" Genesis 2:18 has:<BR/><BR/>"L'Eternel Dieu dit : Il n'est pas bon que l'homme soit seul ; je lui ferai une aide qui sera son <B>vis-à-vis</B>. <BR/><BR/>You can't be someone's subordinate if you are their vis-à-vis, and you can't be someone's vis-à-vis if you are their subordinate. <BR/><BR/>I really like this translation.Charityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08394884331809747043noreply@blogger.com