tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post113590365925491822..comments2024-01-29T06:02:39.583-08:00Comments on Suzanne's Bookshelf: 1 Corinthians 11 The SourceSuzanne McCarthyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-1136260670113970922006-01-02T19:57:00.000-08:002006-01-02T19:57:00.000-08:00Hi Peter,I have trouble locating old comment secti...Hi Peter,<BR/><BR/>I have trouble locating old comment sections, so I will post about Eph. 1:22 in a day or two and bring the discussion up to date. Thanks for your ideas. <BR/><BR/>I assume you know much more Hebrew than I do, and more than a little Greek. So either way I am interested in your comments.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-1136226614170109392006-01-02T10:30:00.000-08:002006-01-02T10:30:00.000-08:00Suzanne, thank you for your kind comments.Gerald a...Suzanne, thank you for your kind comments.<BR/><BR/>Gerald asked about "<I>Judges 11:1, 2 Samuel 22:44 (and Psalm 18:43, same as previous) and Eph 1:22</I>". Well, the first three of these are in Hebrew, rather than Greek; or perhaps in LXX which very often translates Hebrew idioms far too literally. The first of these is anyway an incorrect reference, and the other two references are not correct in LXX, so I assume you are referring to the Hebrew only. But my original point was only about Greek, and perhaps I should have restricted it to good Greek rather than translation Greek.<BR/><BR/>As for Ephesians 1:22, the point here is that the church is the body (v.23) and Christ is the head within that body. What is the role of the head in the body? We may think in terms of leadership and authority, but it is by no means clear that the Greeks did. But one thing which would have been clear is that the head is the source of nourishment for the body, and also the seat of most of its senses.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-1135983453434463792005-12-30T14:57:00.000-08:002005-12-30T14:57:00.000-08:00Hi Gerald,Forgive me - I am running out of time. F...Hi Gerald,<BR/><BR/>Forgive me - I am running out of time. First, in Hebrew meaning number 6 for head is leader or chief. <BR/><BR/>Next. In Ephesians it looks like a play on words. Christ is the κεφαλη, the sum, conclusion, the capital sum of money, the summation; and the church is the fulness, also for us in English the completion. So one is the fulness of the other. They do not exist apart. <BR/><BR/>I assume that this is metaphorical, about men and women in general, we must exist in and for each other as sexes. However, what application does this have to the individual? First, Paul made celibacy a legitimate choice. The individual is complete without a partner - never doubt that. <BR/><BR/>Man is not Christ and woman is not a brainless body. Somehow we must interpret this. We cannot take it as the literal meaning. Each person interprets this based on what they already believe about men and women. <BR/><BR/>I have written about a related subject here. <BR/><BR/>http://englishbibles.blogspot.com/2005/12/which-bible-versions-are-in-church.html<BR/><BR/><I>What concerns me most of all, is that some Christian men do not see that Christian women have personal ambition and drive as part of their natural personality makeup. They could bcome very frustrated if they are made to subvert this to a husband or deny its existance.<BR/><BR/>The young woman must plan and prepare for her career many years before she knows if and who she will marry. Sometimes two careers come together, sometimes they do not; some women, like some men, do not have the same focused drive for a career and are content to support.<BR/><BR/>However, women have in equal proportion intellect, drive and ambition; they have to spread it thinner and are mostly happy to do that. I have nowhere ever heard of any woman who actually believes that women are more driven by impulse than men. In fact, I would say that today most women are overwhemingly convinced, and are supported by statistics in this, that men are far more driven by impulse than women.<BR/><BR/>I find this unfair and have to say that in my job in the secular education system I have had many friends and colleagues who are men, and I find only trivial culturally conditioned differences between us. We are generally able to overlook these differences and relate to each other as people without obsessing on imaginary differences. I would like to see this carry over into the Christian community.</I>Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-1135981420204119702005-12-30T14:23:00.000-08:002005-12-30T14:23:00.000-08:00Hi Peter,Thanks. I do not have her notes. I read a...Hi Peter,<BR/><BR/>Thanks. I do not have her notes. I read an incredible amount on these chapters, many of the same books Ann Nyland read, about 10 - 15 years ago. Then, I just let it all go and stopped worrying about it. I have been reluctant to reimmerse myself so intensively in women's issues and have been reading the Gothic gospel instead along with a few novels, as you can see. However, you have picked out an excellent paragraph from Nyland's notes. Thank you so much. <BR/><BR/>I realize that my responses often fall short of scholarly but sometimes I think it must surely be of interest if I simply share how a woman thinks about these things, when she is forced to. The truth is, as I get older, (I must be the same age as you, Peter) these matters become less important, less intense, than before. <BR/><BR/>What makes it more interesting is that I get to learn so much from your input. I do appreciate it. Thanks.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-1135973430904087092005-12-30T12:10:00.000-08:002005-12-30T12:10:00.000-08:00κεφαλη - this means the physical head of a person....<I>κεφαλη - this means the physical head of a person. However, there is no instance that I am aware of in Greek where head was used as a metaphor for leadership or position in an hierarchy.</I><BR/><BR/>How about Judges 11:1, 2 Samuel 22:44 (and Psalm 18:43, same as previous) and Eph 1:22?Geraldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14013963385157671557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-1135972385415076342005-12-30T11:53:00.000-08:002005-12-30T11:53:00.000-08:00Suzanne, do you have the edition of The Source wit...Suzanne, do you have the edition of The Source with Ann Nyland's notes? She has about two whole pages of notes on this passage, not available online. Here is part of her note on the word "authority" in v.11:<BR/><BR/><I>The <B>possessive pronoun</B> is omitted, thus the authority is the woman's own, according to the normal rules of Greek grammar...</I><BR/><BR/>And here is part of her note on "Messengers", her rendering of "angels", which gives an interesting interpretation:<BR/><BR/><I>...There may be another explanation. In Rome at the time of Paul's writing, a woman who wore something on her head in public - a veil, a hood, any covering - was under the protection of Roman law. No man would dare approach such a woman under risk of grave penalties. The wearing of a sign of her authority on her head may indicate that the woman is under the protection of angels. In fact, this may be supported by verses 5 and 6. A Roman woman of the times who went into public with an uncovered head was not under the protection of Roman law, and an attacker was entitled to plead extenuating circumstances. Thus, in this light in 1 Cor. the woman would have the authority, the right, to be under the protection of angels.</I>Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.com