tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post6708979877010156786..comments2024-01-29T06:02:39.583-08:00Comments on Suzanne's Bookshelf: Grudem, Ptolemy and kephaleSuzanne McCarthyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-57087841393163859042010-05-12T05:19:32.224-07:002010-05-12T05:19:32.224-07:00Suzanne,
what do you make of all the other citati...Suzanne,<br /><br />what do you make of all the other citations Dr Grudem offers?<br /><br />What are your alternatives in terms of the Biblical passages? Do you support 'source'?Topponoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-83523989765177855622009-07-04T12:14:21.749-07:002009-07-04T12:14:21.749-07:00This is what Grudem says about Cervin,
Cervin doe...This is what Grudem says about Cervin,<br /><br />Cervin does not think that head means ruler here because Philo says that Philadelphos is the head of kings, not in the sense of ruling them, but as the preeminent king among the rest. Philadelphos is the top of the kings just as the head is the top of an animal's body. .<br /><br />I recognize that the word hegemon is ruler, but you can't say that Ptolemy is ruler of his own family line. <br /><br />So, in some sense, this cannot be a definitive example of where person A is head of person B, and person A has authority over person B. <br /><br />But I see where Grudem thinks this might be an example of that, except for the context.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-2672802716086986142009-07-04T12:04:48.738-07:002009-07-04T12:04:48.738-07:00Peter,
I agree, except that it can also mean &quo...Peter,<br /><br />I agree, except that it can also mean "to do something first."<br /><br />The difficulty is that it can't say -<br /><br />Philadelphus is "head of kings," as in "the authority over the other kings," because Fitzmeyer agrees that this refers to Philadelphus in relation to his own family line. <br /><br />It can't mean that Philadelphus was "head of the nation" because it is not refering to him being the king of Egypt, but about him being a better king than the other kings. <br /><br />Here is the passage in context, <br /><br />"Some persons, thinking it a scandalous thing that these laws should only be known among one half portion of the human race, namely, among the barbarians, and that the Greek nation should be wholly and entirely ignorant of them, turned their attention to their translation. (28) And since this undertaking was an important one, tending to the general advantage, not only of private persons, but also of rulers, of whom the number was not great, it was entrusted to kings and to the most illustrious of all kings. (29) Ptolemy, surnamed Philadelphus, was the third in succession after Alexander, the monarch who subdued Egypt; and he was, in all virtues which can be displayed in government, the most excellent sovereign, not only of all those of his time, but of all that ever lived; so that even now, after the lapse of so many generations, his fame is still celebrated, as having left many instances and monuments of his magnanimity in the cities and districts of his kingdom, so that even now it is come to be a sort of proverbial expression to call excessive magnificence, and zeal, for honour and splendour in preparation, Philadelphian, from his name; (30) and, in a word, the whole family of the Ptolemies was exceedingly eminent and conspicuous above all other royal families, and among the Ptolemies, Philadelphus was the most illustrious; for all the rest put together scarcely did as many glorious and praiseworthy actions as this one king did by himself, being, as it were, the leader of the herd, and in a manner the head of all the kings." Philo. Moses IISuzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-75491775836157811602009-07-04T07:48:45.499-07:002009-07-04T07:48:45.499-07:00Suzanne, the word I translated "governing&quo...Suzanne, the word I translated "governing" is <i>hēgemoneuon</i>. I accept "leading" as an alternative rendering. But I do think it means a bit more than "prominent". Surely it means doing the work of a <i>hēgemōn</i>, some kind of ruler. I suspect that Philo was trying to make the point that at least in animals the head controls the whole animal. But it is obscure what he means to say about Philadelphus.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-38072958954773321652009-07-04T05:05:20.117-07:002009-07-04T05:05:20.117-07:00If you read the passage as a whole, nothing is men...If you read the passage as a whole, nothing is mentioneed about Philadelphus "governing" but just about him being "ahead of the other kings in reputation." I accept that it could mean governing, as Philo uses kephale that way elsewhere, but he also uses kephale as the "model" to be emulated elsewhere. <br /><br />In any case, Philadelphus is still not the authority over the other kings in his dynasty, so this doesn't quite make sense yet.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-83130894908032941112009-07-04T04:57:58.956-07:002009-07-04T04:57:58.956-07:00Serves me right for doing this in the middle of th...Serves me right for doing this in the middle of the night! But why not say that then. Why has Fistmeyer put in body?Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19505042.post-44870729851378841412009-07-04T03:01:33.912-07:002009-07-04T03:01:33.912-07:00I'm surprised that you say that in the Philo p...I'm surprised that you say that in the Philo passage is "the Greek is too obscure to translate". It seems to me rather elementary. First, we don't have <i>zōē</i> "life" but <i>zōon</i> "living creature". I would translate "having become, just as in a living creature the governing (thing is) the head, in some way (the governing one) of the kings". So what is elided in the second part is not <i>kephalē</i> but <i>to hēgemoneuon</i>.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.com