McCarthy vs Grudem (Wayne Grudem)

If you google my name, please note that I am not 59 years old, (although I will be some day) I do not write romance novels (although I would like to) I am not a commissioner of this or that.

However, I am the Suzanne McCarthy about whom Wayne Grudem writes,

From what she has written here, I would not be able to say that Suzanne McCarthy should be considered a reliable source of information for understanding Greek or for quoting other authors (like myself) fairly and with attention to context.

I think that is quite fair and I have never felt that there was any reason to argue with this. I perceive nothing negative in this at all. Dr. Grudem is perfectly welcome to this opinion. I have been called far worse. But some people want to know about this post and what my side is. Sigh. Here are Grudem's first two points and you can read the in between text on the original post. (Note: If you are bored already please scroll down to the second half of this post.)

1. The text in question mentioned in the Burer and Wallace article is not Psalms of Solomon 6:2 (as she says) but 2:6. It says:

True, I reversed the numbers.

2. Burer and Wallace do not misquote Psalms of Solomon 2:6 in their article which I cite (from New Testament Studies 47 (2001), pp. 86-87). Here is the evidence: interested readers can see the Greek text in Alfred Rahlfs, Septuaginta (Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschart, 1979), vol. 2, p. 472. People who have Bible Works software, for example, can find it by first going to Romans 16:7, then clicking on episemoi, then "search lemma" and the examples from the Apocrypha will come up on the list.

So here is what Burer and Wallace actually wrote. See what you think.

When, however, an elative notion is found, en plus a personal plural dative is not uncommon. In Pss. Sol. 2:6, where the Jewish captives are in view, the writer indicates that “they were a spectacle among the gentiles” ( ἐπισήμῳ ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν ). This construction comes as close to Rom. 16:7 as any we have yet seen. The parallels include (a) people as the referent of the adjective evpi,shmoj, (b) followed by evn plus the dative plural, (c) the dative plural referring to people as well. All the key elements are here.

However, this is not accurate. Pss. Sol. 2:6 actually says ἐν ἐπισήμῳ ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν. Let's look at the discrete points, a) people is NOT the referent of the adjective episemos, b) it is followed by en plus the dative c) the dative plural refers to people. Point A, which is by far the most significant, is not correct.

The translation, "a spectacle among the Gentiles" provided by Burer & Wallace is a loose approximation and not an actual translation. The Greek says either "in a bond among the Gentiles" or "in a prominent [place] among the Gentiles." Grudem concurs.

How does this compare with Burer and Wallace's main point. They say,

Semantically, what is significant is that (a) the first group is not a part of the second—that is, the Jewish captives were not gentiles; and (b) what was ‘among’ the gentiles was the Jews’ notoriety. This is precisely how we are suggesting that Rom. 16:7 should be taken.

But, in fact, either the Jews were actually in bonds among the Gentiles, or they were in a place which was among the Gentiles. In either case, the Jews were actually among the Gentiles and NOT in a place which was visible TO the Gentiles. This means that the first group is geographically in a place among the second group, it is inclusive. There is no question of episemos being an adjective referring to the Jews. That is impossible.

The example in Pss. 2:6 is not a parallel to Roamns 16:7 and it does not demonstrate the elative use of episemos, if, in fact, there is one. It does not show that Junia was conspicious to the apostles. If it means she was conspicuous, then it means that AMONG the apostles, she was conspicuous. She stood out.

Grudem then quoted what I had said in a comment on a previous thread,

"It is now well-known that Wallace and Burer misquoted Psalm of Solomon in their article. They actually mistook a noun for an adjective. In fact, Dr. Grudem's entire section on Junia is riddled with factual errors."

This is true. I said this. I regret the tone. This was only a comment on my part, not a published work, but I do believe that Wallace and Burer made a fundamental error in the way they cited Pss. 2:6 as ἐπισήμῳ ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν (visible among the Gentiles) instead of citing ἐν ἐπισήμῳ ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν (in [a place that is] prominent among the Gentiles.) They suggest that a verb of perception is involved but that is not the case. That is the first main point.

The second is this. Why did I say that Grudem's section on Junia was riddled with errors. Two reasons. If you open the pdf of Grudem's book Evangelical Feminism and Biblical Truth and use a search engine, you will find that he uses the term "riddled with ..." at least three times in that book. I thought it was a striking term and it stuck in my head. I regurgitated it. I am human.

INSCRIPT RE NEW HANDY DANDY FORMAT

In a case of serendipity, new today CBMW offers Evangelical Feminism and Biblical Truth in a new format. I had to try twice but then it downloaded in a trice. A quick search confirms that the expression "riddled with linguistic blunders" occurs three times in the text, and "riddled with methodological errors" occurs once. Grudem uses this term and his approach is "reasoned and comprehensive," but I use this term and my language is "intemperate." What a double standard! Oh, right, that is what complementarianism is.

And yes, Grudem made other implausible statements in discussing Junia, suggesting that there is evidence that it might be a man's name. There are two citations which all scholars agree are not valid, and then there is Wolters' recent work. Wolters does not offer evidence that Junia is a male name. He offers a plausible argument that there is an outside possibility that it could be a male name. This is not evidence. It is only logical argumentation that the evidence could exist.

Are you bored yet? I sure am. Please read the post on Adrian Warnock's blog and ask me specific questions.

Notification of new topic starting here.

Now for something that might be more interesting -

I was reminded very recently by a commenter called TUAD, that Dan Wallace once corrected my Latin, declaring that there is no such word as dominari in the Latin Vulgate. Here is the exchange regarding authentein in the Vulgate, with reference to 1 Tim. 2:12.

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Sue - I discovered that Jerome had already come to the conclusion that authentein meant dominari

Dan Wallace - Jerome did not use the word ‘dominari’ (no such word in Latin); he used ‘dominare.’ Look it up in the Oxford Latin Dictionary, definition 1.

Sue - On “dominare,” I would like to ask you what form that is. It does not show up in Lewis and Short on the Perseus site. I can only find “dominor” with the infinitive “dominari” as is found in the Vulgate.

Dan Wallace - Sue, I stand corrected; the form in 1 Tim 2.12 is ‘dominari.’ The spelling with the ‘e’ is an infinitive, however.

Sue - I do think that if you check you will find that dominare is not the infinitive. I don’t mean to be stubborn and obstinate about this, but I just think that it would benefit someone to know that dominari is the infinitive of dominor, since it is a vital part of this discussion. I think then next time you will know that dominari is the infiinitive form and this is what Jerome used.

Dan Wallace - Sue, please forgive me for not noticing where you mentioned your website. I still can’t find it as I go back through the thread. Can you please list it again? Of course, I am heavily sedated so I may not be seeing things right in front of my nose!

That may explain as well why I didn’t recognize dominari as an infinitive. My classical Latin texts (I have but one Latin grammar on the Vulgate, and it’s awfully brief) list all four conjugations of the present active infinitive as ending in -e. For example, the first conjugation of laudo has laudare as the infinitive. Now, I can’t explain why the form dominari would be used in 1 Tim 2.12, since the Vulgate clearly is using it as an infinitive (as it is dependent on permitto). But the form dominare occurs in Judges 8.22 and Ps 109.2. In Judges 8.22, it’s an imperative. Perhaps someone who is not on pain killers can solve this mystery for us.

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After this, several people asked me to discontinue the discussion out of respect for Dan Wallace. Eventually someone else did explain to Dr. Wallace that dominari is a deponent verb and the matter was settled. I was unable to ascertain his problem myself.

I cite this because it seems that some people think that Grudem is questioning my credibility when commenting on languages. I can only say that my Greek is much, much better than my Latin, but my Latin goes way beyond laudo, laudare. I think that it is very simple. Dan Wallace wrote the Junia article. He sometimes slips up on linguistic matters. So do I. We are all human.

There is no reason for any woman to pay any attention to any of this stuff. It is simply the scribbling of scholars and has no truck with God. Women, be free, from Wallace and Grudem. A good high school Greek and Latin teacher, such as I had, will do you much more good. Three cheers for Elizabeth Wilson.

Cathie Nicoll

I wrote about Cathie Nicoll the other day, but it was absorbed into the larger context,

In the local church that I attended women had also been welcome in the pulpit. One occasional speaker was Cathie Nicoll, a long-time Inter Varsity worker who received the Order of Canada. She was a mentor of my mother and a much respected Bible teacher.

However, about 10 years ago the local congregational climate changed toward women. The priest was from the diocese of Sydney and Jim Packer was an honourary assistant.

After Cathie Nicoll passed away, I believe that no other women ever stood in the pulpit on a Sunday morning. This was a deliberate decision of the priest although I am not sure that the congregation was ever consulted on this practice. It is contrary to the expectations of Canadian Anglicans.

A reader of this blog emailed me,

I just read your post about Cathy Nicoll. Interesting. She led my late mother in law to Christ as well. My late mother in law grew up in Winnipeg. She became a believer while in college (nursing) and was a great dear friend of Cathy Niccol.

Then yesterday on the phone a friend told me about how she went to the hospital every day to stay with Cathie in the last few days of her life before she died in Calgary at the age of 93, in 2004. It made me happy to think that such a warm and loving person was with Cathie during that time.

We also talked about Cathie's sermon planning before she came from Calgary to preach at St. John's Shaughnessy for the last time. My friend was in Calgary and discussed the sermon before hand with her and I was in Vancouver to hear her sermon. It was well accepted. I missed hearing women preach after that.

Cathie worked with Inter-Varsity and Pioneer Camps all her life. She mentored many young people, both men and women, and preached with the bishop in the audience.

Here are a couple of links for Cathie Nicoll. Leading Women, and Imago.

Cathie Nicoll, or “Nicky”, as she was known to thousands of students and friends from Newfoundland to Vancouver Island, left us peacefully on May 3, 2004. Born of Scottish missionary parents in Chefoo, Shantung, China. In September of 1930, Noel Palmer, Inter-Varsity’s first full-time General Secretary, hired a half-time secretary to assist him in the office for the grand sum of $10 a week. And so, Cathie began her half-century of work with Inter-Varsity, a fledgling student mission. Cathie was instrumental in beginning Inter-School Christian Fellowship, Varsity Christian Fellowship and Teachers’ Christian Fellowship in Jamaica. As mentor and Bible teacher, she influenced a generation of students and campers. In 1987, her remarkable role among youth in Canada was recognized by the Rt. Hon. Jeanne Sauve when she received the Order of Canada. Her contribution to Inter-Varsity’s work and her profoundly biblical leadership principles were demonstrated in the 1990 video “This May Be Your Life’s Work”.

This is one more installment in my series, (so far unlabeled, sorry) of "faithful women." Previous faithful women featured here are Grace Irwin, Elizabeth Wilson, Florence Li Tim Oi, Catherine Booth and Marie Dentiere.

Elizabeth Wilson

Two years ago I wrote about Elizabeth Wilson, who taught me Latin and Greek. She died last year of Alzheimer's in her late 80's.

Last week another former student of Miss Wilson's emailed me and shared some more memories. Robin wrote,

Miss Wilson did more than teach me that ancient language, she brought that ancient time to life again. I had never been to Italy, nor even out of North America, but she filled my mind with pictures of Rome and especially Pompeii. I longed to go to Pompeii more than any place because of those hours spent in that first floor classroom which was always cool and dim, (she liked to keep the nasty overhead fluorescents turned off and I have preferred dimmer lighting ever since).

I remember one long, hot day when I lay slumped on my desk, drained of all energy, listening to her read some boring passage from some boring book - such was my attitude as a bright but disengaged teenager in the 80's. She paused and that smile curved over her face as she gazed down at us.

"Here's a word for you - susurrus". Her voice was a caress and I looked up, suddenly engaged.

"Suuuuuuu-surrrrrrrr-ussssssssssssssss". Her eyes were half-closed with that familiar, knowing smile playing on it, but suddenly the air seemed charged. I stared at the slight woman with the long grey hair wrapped around her head, and suddenly to me she seemed decades younger, those remarkable blue eyes clear with youth's light, and she seemed to flit in and out of the shadows cast by billowing curtains suddenly moved by the first breeze of that sultry afternoon.

"It is my favourite word and isn't it splendid? Onomatopoeia at it's finest - it sounds like a whisper. She said the word again and for the first time, the dusty academic was revealed as a real woman. I whispered the word and felt it tingle in secret places and it must have shown on my face because her eyes twinkled as they caught mine and then she moved on, breaking the spell.

Two years ago, I finally made it to Pompeii and it was even more glorious than I had imagined. I sat on the steps of the amphitheatre, gazing around and remembering Miss Wilson, her eyes alight and her voice clear as she prowled the front of the classroom describing the wonders of the very place I was now in. I shed a few tears then and I shed a few more when I read on your blog about her having Alzheimer's. I hope the people who have been/are caring for her know what a remarkable and unforgettable woman she was. A class-act all the way and I will always remember her.

Alzheimers and memories

I have written before about my high school Greek teacher, a British Plymouth Brethren, Elizabeth Wilson, who now suffers from alzheimers. Here is another memory from those long hours when she taught me as a lone Greek student.

Most of our classes revolved around Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, with special attention to the passages about young women. We also read chapters of Acts, but little else in the NT. It was a classics course. However, I was also required to write a paper about the Proverbs 31 woman.

My remaining impressions were that a woman should learn how to weave, which I did; have servants, which I do not; and finally, buy and sell real estate.

We never really talked about the 'women in the church' issue, but she did make one comment that I remember still. She said,

"Things have not gone well for women in England since the Roman church took over from the Celtic church."

She spoke as if she was talking of events that had taken place the year before. I raised my eyebrows. As my adolescent brain climbed the ladders of time, I discounted the Tractarian controversy, Bonnie Prince Charlie, and poor old James II - didn't he escape in a row-boat? I finally settled on Queen Mary, bloody Mary, surely that is what she was talking about.

Looking pained at my ignorance of early British history, she explained that she was refering to Hilda of Whitby, who was abbess in Northumberland in the 7th century. And so I learned then of the legacy of the Celtic church and came later to read Caedmon's song and the Dream of the Rood. I understood that my teacher felt the loss of the rich spirituality of men and women together, with the immediacy of a recently lost legacy, not something clouded by the passage of millenia.

Hilda was the abbess of a religious community of men and women together. She was a teacher of theology and was consulted by royalty. Northumberland became a great centre of learning at that time.

Hilda also hosted the Synod of Whitby where certain ecclesiastical differences between the Celtic and Roman churches were settled. Since that time the Roman church gained influence in England. At least that is how I understood it.

Almost all of our knowledge of St. Hilda (Hild) is derived from the writings of the Venerable Bede. Her correct name, Hild, means "battle." She was born in Northumbria in 614, the daughter of Hereric, the nephew of King Edwin of Northumbria, making her King Edwin's grandniece. She, like her great-uncle, was brought to Christ through the preaching of St. Paulinus, who baptized her in 627 at the age of 13 when King Edwin and his entire household became Christians.

She lived the life of a noblewoman until 20 years later when she was moved by the example of her sister Saint Hereswitha who became a nun at the Chelles Monastery in France. Hilda intended to follow her sister abroad, but St. Aidan persuaded her to return to Northumbria in 649. She was initially put in charge of a small group of women who were also aspiring to the religious life at a small house on the River Wear, but Bishop Aidan soon realized she was ready for wider responsibilities.

There was a much larger and fully established religious house of women at Hartlepool whose Foundress, Bega (St. Bee), was founding a new house at Tadcaster. Hilda was called to take her place as Superior. St. Hilda ruled at Hartlepool for some years with great success before being called to found a monastery at Streaneshalch, a place to which the Danes a century or two later gave the name of Whitby.

St. Hilda governed the monastery at Whitby for the rest of her life. Under Abbess Hilda, Whitby gained a great reputation, becoming a burial place for kings, and a place of pilgrimage. The fame of St. Hilda's wisdom was so great that from far and near monks and royal personages came to consult her. Whitby was also a double monastery: a community of men and another of women, with the chapel in between, and Hilda as the governor of both. It was a great center of learning, especially the study of sacred scripture.

Whitby was known as a place where clergy, monks and nuns could receive a rigorous and thorough religious education. The arts and sciences were so well established by her that it was regarded as one of the best seminaries for learning in the then known world. No less than five of her subject monks later became bishops, including Saint John of Beverly, and Saint Wilfrid of York.

St. Hilda was especially revered for her ability to recognize spiritual gifts in both men and women. Her kindheartedness can be seen from the story of Caedmon, one of her herdsmen, whose poetic gift was discovered and nurtured by Hilda. She encouraged him with the same zeal and care she would use toward a member of the nobility, urging him to use his gifts as a means of bringing the knowledge of the Gospel Truth to common folk. St. Caedmon later composed the first hymns in the English language.

And so Elizabeth Wilson, now an alzheimer's victim, gave me a memory that telescoped the passage of centuries and the distance of half a hemisphere, into something that happened yesterday and just next door. Even better, I spent the following summer in Northumberland with my sister and parents, wandering through Lindisfarne Abbey, and other sites.

The Story of the Firebag

There were a couple of questions about my great-aunt Elizabeth Hammond. Let me tell the story again with a few more details.

Elizabeth was born in 1873, and was the oldest of 6 children. They were educated at McGill and Elizabeth graduated with an MA in Classics in 1899. She travelled to England on her own, taught high school and was generally considered an adventuress in her day.

In 1905, she went with her parents and a widowed friend of her father's, Wilson Erwin on a canoe and exploration trip through the rivers and lakes near the Manitoba border. There she bought this firebag, made by the wife of an Ojibway chief. It is a beautiful example of woodland beading, and took about one year to make.

Mr. Erwin was a labouring brother, a full time preacher with the Plymouth brethren. He had a large family of girls and his wife had recently died. He had intended shortly before this time to start selling life insurance to augment his income. However, he was told that he could not do this by the other brothers in the Brethren.

He then heard about an exciting new peat bog venture in Northern Ontario. (Peat Resources Ltd. represents a modern peat bog company. This is still a viable investment venture.) So he planned a trip to Northern Ontario with Elizabeth's parents and she went along.

During their time on this camping trip, Mr. Erwin and Elizabeth developed a closer relationship. How could they not! However, it became clear that her parents were not in agreement. One year later, when Elizabeth's parents were away on a family trip, they married. Elizabeth was 33 and Mr. Erwin was much older, as he had daughters that were even older than Elizabeth. Her parents cut them off.

Mr. Erwin had continued to recruit investors for the peat bog venture but it all came to nothing and he was accused of losing the investment funds of many of his Brethren supporters. I believe that it was around this time that Elizabeth started teaching at McGill. (She was a contemporary of Stephen Leacock, whom she knew, but that is another story.)

My sense is that they both worked hard to repay the money that was lost, but that ultimately it was my aunt who supported her husband in his old age. When she spoke to me of her husband it was with affection and grief over the isolation he had experienced in his last years, being cut off from fellowship with the group that he had served for so long.

There was never a hint that she felt that he had not allowed her to speak in the meeting. She could not have imagined such a practice. I am sure that he valued her for education and independent spirit and that they had a relationship full of mutual respect.

She told me this story when she was 97 and I was 15. She had a great sense of humour as well as an acerbic wit. She also knew how to laugh at herself. May we all learn from that.

Note: The image of the firebag is taken from the Wish Magazine, where it was featured in the All Canadian March issue, 2006. page 11. My niece, Jane, is the editor of this Canadian women's magazine. Here is a picture of her on the editorial page, knitting. Some day I will write more about knitting and why it is the reigning metaphor for many women in our family.

Faithful Women II

Grace Irwin retired before I started high school. Elizabeth Wilson, a British woman who had been brought up in the Plymouth Brethren, took over the Latin classes after Miss Irwin retired. Elizabeth Wilson had taken care of her father for many years and then come to Canada. I understood from her that he had been excommunicated and they lived together in social isolation until he died.

Miss Wilson taught Latin to a good sized class. This was mainly due to the fact that our French teacher was not particularly well liked since she practised a certain sort of psychological humiliation, as only French teachers can. The Latin class was made up of escapees.

In Latin we read a lot of poetry, sometimes making silly translations into English, and considered it not too bad at all. We pronounced Latin as if it were Italian behind our teacher's back and she was relieved that we remembered anything at all.

Miss Wilson also taught me Greek several mornings a week for 3 years. I remember more from those classes than any other. Only in looking back do I see that she chose stories and selections that she thought would interest me. Nausicaa, and Andromache, etc. Also Socrates, and the last few chapters of Acts, especially the shipwreck. She had a dry humour and endless devotion to what was more or less a thankless task.

I have often seen or talked to Elizabeth Wilson over the years but we were never really close. My sister and I would get together with her and Miss Irwin in the summer or at Easter. However, the last time I saw Miss Wilson it seemed that something was not right. It turned out that she was in the early stages of Alzheimers.