Sunday, August 24, 2008

St. John's Shaughnessy Church Vancouver

Tonight at St. John's Shaughnessy Church for the beginning of VYC, Richard James spoke and said that the high rate of divorce is because women will not accept their role, Eve's sin was her rebellion against Adam, women's desire is against their husband, God has put men in charge to end all arguments, men have authority and women have submission. This is God's word and a test of faith.

This is the biggest Anglican Church in Canada. This church has left the Anglican Church of Canada and joined the province of the Southern Cone. This is the church of Dr. James Packer who edited the ESV Bible and has signed a statement that another Bible, the TNIV Bible, translated by men who worked in the same institution as him, was "untrustworthy."

Addendum: I am recording what was told to me by my daughter. I have not attended this church myself for the last two years. She got up and walked out of this service which was the evening youth service.


Anonymous said...

Don't worry Suzanne. Don't fret.

Everything will work out perfectly in the end. What isn't of God will pass away. That those who love Him have to endure suffering in the meantime is nothing new.

I'm probably trying to teach you to suck eggs but, OTOH, I don't think it ever hurts to be reminded that God's in charge, the Church belongs to Him and all things work together for good to them that love God and are called according to His purpose. For me there is great comfort in knowing that. If it weren't so I wouldn't be hoping to comfort you by trying to remind you of things that, without doubt, you already know.

Lin said...

Please keep speaking out. If it had not been for those who were willing to tell the truth about the TNIV, I would never have known about the propaganda war railed against it.

Bob MacDonald said...

There is a rule of fear and law and we are not under it. Never have been.

Anonymous said...

I guess the straight jacket of male-centered order is more important to James than justice.

I take comfort in the fact that justice is more important to God than any man's self-deception over his own importance.

"Let no man think more highly of himself than he ought to."
~the Apostle Paul

Anonymous said...

"This is God's word and a test of faith."

So now a woman is not even saved unless she submits to whatever these men decree?

This holding a woman's very salvation hostage for the sake of men's pet doctrine is going to bring judgement on their heads.

Barring the way of salvation by the letter of manmade laws is a very serious issue.

Pray that these men will recognize their error and escape the judgement that comes with spreading such heresy.

Bob MacDonald said...

I find it better to pray for the destruction of my enemies as the psalmist does. We all come before the judgment seat of Christ - and we are not spared the consequences of our decisions and actions. This issue has consequences for all those who participate in forcible governance of others. There is no escape except through the judgment. If anyone is in Christ, he or she will of course escape themselves but not without suffering the loss by fire of what they have dearly held. - especially dearly held 'beliefs' that support dearly held power and privilege. These people are enemies - don't forget it. Love them but pray for their destruction. If they are men then pray for their circumcision in Christ. (See psalm 118 and Colossians 2:11 - there is fun translation here)

Men were singled out for this death of the firstborn because of their love of power - it is an evolutionary thing.

Anonymous said...

It is very tempting to pray destruction on my enemies, really.

But what prevents me is the story where James and John wanted to call down fire and Jesus telling them no.
Also where Jesus taught us to bless those that curse us... I kinda feel the need to obey his words there.

To me, these men teaching heresy are already cursed. What good is it for me to add curse on top of pre-existing curse.

The way to break a curse is to bless. When I'm blessing them, it's not so they can continue to pursue bad behavior, thereby continue to heap more judgement upon themselves. It is so that they can have the blessing of escaping/repenting of their bad behavior and escaping the curse they place themselves under.

I've seen this principle work on a personal level. I'd like to tell the story but it's too long for here.

These men are troubling the body of Christ with their error. I'd like to see them stop on their own accord.
But if they don't. Well, pride goes before a fall.
And a time will come when they cannot escape it the consequences.

Bob MacDonald said...

I am willing to sit corrected in this matter. One of the things I am searching for is the best way to resolve the violence in the Psalms. One way that I have succeeded in part is to recognize the violence as being in the cross. Another way is to let the ambiguity of pronoun stand in psalms like 7 and 10 so that it is the righteous one who gets caught in the trap the wicked has set - but who is not destroyed. It is a tricky piece of casuistry.

Nonetheless, what kind of Spirit are we dealing with - Jesus was constrained until the fire was spread on the earth and so at the time of his instruction to the Boanerges he must wait. Now the Spirit is available without constraint. The same fire cleanses and strengthens.

Still I temper my prayer - and like Daniel, I pray, let the Lord rebuke them. At present it is not my task - and I too am impulsive.

Suzanne McCarthy said...

Spiritual violence is being done to women and I have been subject to this my entire life.

I can honestly say that my own father had none of these beliefs, but in every other venue, the church, family, home, and now the church again, I have lived with men very close to me, who believe that women gain salvation by submitting to the closest male in everything.

They would put this in the negative. Women are saved by grace as are men, but if women do not believe the word of God, that women are to obey. or submit to male headship, men being in charge, then they deny the power of scripture, and are therefore lost.

There may be an atmosphere of lack of stability socially, just as there was before the National Socialist Party came to power in Germany. This should be a warning to us that this autocratic power-mongering is a very dangerous thing.

Bill Heroman said...

All politics aside, the man is wrong. Divorces are up because they're affordable. It's simply the miracle of the modern economy. All the other red herring social changes that get blamed for divorce are merely concurrent symptoms of the same dang cause. So tell that man, "It's the economy, stupid."

THEN tell that man, "Women aren't suddenly leaving their husbands because they got uppity. Women would have done it centuries ago, if it had only been possible!"

Sue said...

Thanks, Bill,

I have been written off as a feminist myself so I don't think they would take my word for it. Its not as if I think men are uniquely to blame for divorce - I don't. But it is pure misogyny for this to be preached to a group of unmarried young adults. Basically if the young women do not submit completely, if they feel any rebellion at all to surrendering their rights to all decision-making, bye bye heaven.

What a curse.

Iyov said...

What's a smart cookie like you doing in a place like that?

Suzanne McCarthy said...

I haven't attended for almost 2 years, but my daughter has attended the youth events. I think this will be her last.

Don said...

I consider that type of teaching to be spiritual abuse. So I am glad your daughter is leaving. And for your courage is posting.

Alaska said...

There may be an atmosphere of lack of stability socially, just as there was before the National Socialist Party came to power in Germany. This should be a warning to us that this autocratic power-mongering is a very dangerous thing.

Sue, I think this is a very appropriate point. What is it that is drawing people to the authoritarian teachings of CBMW and their more black and white counterparts, Vision Forum, etc?

I think the lack of stability (as the traditionalist framework comes crumbling down and we all search for what it means to live in a post-modern culture). While CBMW and friends would say that people are being drawn back to the Bible, I would say that, just as the Germans found hope in Hitler, the reality is that sheep are drawn to anything that appears safe. CBMW and Vision Forum and the others promise safety in their structured walls. We humans have proved that we are more than willing to give up our freedom for a guaranteed daily meal.

All in all, it's frightening.

(I say the above, in great part, because hindsight tells me this is one of the main reasons I gravitated towards CBMW and friends and preached and lived their doctrines for so long. Galations 4 and 5 could have been written to ME, because I was no different than the Christian-Jews were running back to the seemingly-safe stability of the Law, and in so doing, denying the power of the Cross).